Sunday, 31 August 2014

Mother of Bob, Hyperion changes.

Hyperion has been released, Alot of it I am fine with, in fact I really like the majority of it.

Sigs keeping ID over down time is great. +1
Wormhole effect balance I'm happy with Black holes are no longer the leper of w-space. +1
Bookmark copying increase. +1
K162 spawning when you jump in. +1

The next few things will be from the POV of my small alt corp that lives in a C4.

Some thing I think is good for wormholes in general is the second static for C4 wormholes. However it does come at a price, One I'm willing to pay though even if it really sucks for me.

Second static.

My small alt corp I have that makes T3 also has a C4 wormhole it had a C3 wormhole and was a really sweet place to relax, It had perfect PI me and 4 of my mates could easily run sites in there and pvp in the c3 if we wanted. The down side is with the patch we got our second static that was a C5. Now this sucks combined with the mass/distance change and the frig wh. we are basically screwed. As a small corp we really struggle to close the C5 with assuming we could all use orcas which we can't it would still take 2 rounds to close it, with battleships 3 rounds, If there is any big group in that C5 we basically have no way at all of closing it safely.

Frigate wormholes.

These seem cool on paper but for my alt group we cant collapse them at all. If we want to do anything we have to bubble and leave a scout on them to run sites. Even this isn't ideal a group of interceptors could easy just fly through a bubble get tackle while other frigs burn through to come help kill us.

Mass/distance jump mechanic.

This just plain sucks, it makes it so hard for us to actually collapse our new C5 safely, using Orca's takes one guy at least two trips which gives who ever is in there plenty of time to find us. Using battleships isn't much better. That would be three rounds needed to close and while we would be closer to the wormhole. But would need three rounds so 10 minutes at least.

These three changes combined have basically made it impossible for us to live in the C4. Which really sucks as it was a great wormhole to relax in. Now alot of this is down to the fact we have a C5 as our second static if it had been a C1 to C4 we'd maybe have been ok.

We've not the only ones having this issue. So are others and I see others leaving. However while some move out others will hopefully move in as its potentially a decent PvP wormhole for small groups. This is why for the dual statics I'm happy to pay the price for this change.

Now for the NoHo POV.

Frigate Wormholes.

These are pretty sweet for us, We already have a frig fleet comp. So we can pretty much take on most small groups running sites in lower class wormholes. Caps in a escalation site is probably a bit out of our league for the current fleet set up but we're working on that. If we connect to anyone running sites in C1 to C4 i'm totally confident we can kill them no problem with our frig fleets. The slight down side is even after being toned down, these things still seem to be bloody everywhere, While we appear to have a huge chain, in reality 85% of the chain is off limit for anything but frigs/destroyers. So this is mixed blessing, if you love frig fights your in luck. If you don't, sucks to be you.

So for us great. smaller groups it potentially sucks.

Mass/distance jump mechanic.

We are currently up to 100 pages on the main feedback thread, with a extra 36 pages on a earlier feedback thread. Again this really isn't going to affect NoHo, rage rolling will take a bit longer. Our (NSFW) Bhaals deep fleet, needs a few tweaks but is otherwise not really affected. But then we're one of the largest groups out, Smaller groups will certainly be feeling this. Especially if they connect to us or we connect to them. Its going to be really hard to close any wormholes that were active in, Yep I said it ANY wormhole, not just our home system. Yesterday we caught our first cap trying to close there static that had connected to our static. They made a bounce and warped there dread there and in that time we managed to get Dictor to the wormhole and bubble up. I'm not sure if people will keep doing this, I feel that just slow boating back is much safer than making a bounce, especially if you have a nano cap.

This is also worse in lower class wormholes as you can't use caps so actually need more people to roll a wormhole (or more trips) as shown below.

C5 to C5 you need 1 dread, 1 orca and 1 battleship.

C4 to C5 you need 5 (potentially 6 if its a plus mass wh) orcas. or 10 or 11 battleships

C4 to C2 you need 4 orca trips or 7 battleships.

Again putting more pressure on smaller groups in lower class wormholes

I just don't see anything good coming from this change at all. People are happy with a certain amount of risk, But this will most likely end up being a unacceptable amount of risk, leading to people not rolling.

there are already several threads about people not getting any new sites in there system. Which could well be a indication that there is less people running sites now. Which isn't good at all. I'm hoping to get numbers in the next few days from CCP and hope these will provide more information.

My own view this this mass/distance change is probably one of the worst things to happen to wormhole space so far. I'd realy like this rolled back and the number of frig wormholes lowered considerably again.

Annoying stuff, If you have read any of the threads on wormhole forum you'll see alot of people (normally out of corp alts or nullsec people) post about changes that really don't know what they are talking about and while I don't go quite as far as The Mittani I do some what agree.

I've used one of his paragraphs a couple times now in the thread.

Here's the hard truth: If you don't live in Wormholes, and you've never lived there, your opinion about how wormholes should or shouldn't be is worse than irrelevant: you are the virgin offering advice on how to get laid. Like a virgin, you probably genuinely believe that your opinion matters and that the mere fact that you have no personal experience on the topic shouldn't invalidate your opinion, while everyone else listening to you is quietly shaking their head.
What is worse than people talking about stuff they don't know, Is people talking about stuff based on stuff they think they know that's actually wrong. This frustrates the hell out of me if people don't understand the basics of how to roll a very simple wormhole how the hell are they ment to comment on how this will effect wormhole space. Now one of two people can easily be ignored on the wormhole forum. But what about when this is happening on actual podcasts with, so called wormhole experts. This to me is way worse you have people listening to these assuming they are correct when in fact there "expert" is talking total shit, basic stuff like, "closing with two dreads and orca" highlight the point they don't know how to roll wormholes. Then getting basic facts about the changes wrong (caps will now spawn up to 50km from the wormhole) when its stated clearly in the dev blog exactly what it is.

Anyway rant over. Alot of good changes, some quality of life stuff and huge pants on head change, that drowns out most of the other stuff.

Ooh Huge thanks to Robb from Ixtab and Angelues from NoHo for helping me with C3 testing I managed to get 80% of the testing done in one day thanks to them.


  1. I really hope you are allowed to discuss some of the statistics you get regarding whats happening in WH at the moment.

    I hear a LOT of negatives regarding the number of holes and the mass changes. CCP seem convinced that they want to make WH much more dangerous. The question is will the players be happy to continue living there with the new rule set.

    Well I mean players outside of the 1 man PI Corp or Massive mega Corp

  2. I'll tell you about myself quick so you know I'm not a virgin. I'm with Complex Systems, headed by Von Keigai ( His latest post is also on this subject. I recently went off by myself to try to solo cap escalations with 3 accounts. I completed one and that was enough excitement for me. I've also done things like get my cap stuck on the wrong side of the hole and jumped into k-space without enough fuel to get to my cyno, so I may not be the brightest, but I do have some experience.

    Our corp is in a similar situation with a C4->C5,C4. I agree with you and I'm happy to pay the price. I believe the number of small wormholes have been reduced and reduced to an acceptable level.

    As for the pants on head change, do you think the danger now of rolling a C5->C5 or C5->NS is more inline with the danger of rolling a C4->C5?
    I felt that in the past C4->C5 rolling was more dangerous than rolling a C5->C5 and to me that seemed wrong.
    For small corps this will sometimes mean not doing PvE if you are connected to a systems that's too hot. We have had to do this in the past with our C4->C4, shouldn't small corps in C5s also have to do this?

    1. ooh for small groups its way more dangerous to roll a c4 c5 than for groups to roll a c5 c5.

      and yeah groups in c5 c5 will probably also have to roll or crit the wh.

    2. "I'd really like this rolled back"

      I guess what I was getting at was, doesn't this change even up the risk of rolling? Now people who were mainly rolling holes that allow caps, are taking as much of a risk as people that are rolling holes that don't allow them.
      If this was rolled back, would there be a change to make rolling C1-4s less risky?

      Because I haven't lived in a POS in a C5 does
      "and yeah groups in c5 c5 will probably also have to roll or crit the wh."
      mean they will need to do this for protection, regardless of if they want to do PvE? If so you may want to make this clearer for the rest of us. I like the idea of a small C5 corp needing to roll using battleships like everyone else, but having to bring a fight every time a hostile system connects just so they aren't evicted will drive them all out.

    3. not having the jump distance would allow smaller groups to slam shut wh's in bigger groups face. or slam it shut only allowing part of a fleet in.

      The bigger groups who use caps all the time are still not at risk now. while smaller groups are at alot more risk..

    4. "not having the jump distance would allow smaller groups to slam shut wh's in bigger groups face." So they could go back to farming. Now they may have to just stop running sites, and that's what everyone else in w-space had to do in this situation.

      "or slam it shut only allowing part of a fleet in." as a PvP tactic. No one else had this option. If jump distance is rolled back, will C1-C4 have this option?

      "while smaller groups are at alot more risk.." while rolling, which they can chose not to do, and this risk is now more on par with what C1-C4 rolling. What about risk of eviction, has it changed? Is there a way to keep this risk what it was? Is that needed?

    5. Do you have a issue with people doing pve? if you are refering to farmers as small groups they didn't use to roll holes anyway when it was connected to big groups so nothing has changed here. your hurting smaller groups who still want to pvp and do stuff but simply don't have the numbers to fight bigger groups like NoHo.

      as for c1 to c4 not having the option. ofc they do you can use battle ships to close wh's mid fight hell we've used our 100mn t3s to fo this on c2 to c4's before to trap people in with us, so this is a viable tactic for any class wh with the possible expection of c1's.

      smaller groups again I feel your referring to farmers who in general didnt roll on people anyway. you should classify what you mean my small group. When i say small groups i mean groups in c1 to c4.

      smaller groups in c2 to c4 are in my view are still at far more risk when rolling than bigger groups. even groups who lack numbers in c5 and c6 will find it easier to roll assuming they can use caps. due to needing less ships to roll a wh.

      What about risk of eviction. If i want to evict someone this change wont make any difference at all to how i would go about evicting some one. one slight change is that with frig wh's its really hard to stop people getting back in, with interceptors.

    6. No issue with PvE, I mainly PvE, and would call myself a farmer, but I do it in a C4. We roll to find statics for PvE or PvP. If we roll into a system that has people we can't fight, rolling is risky and we may not try it.
      I think sometimes I'm using rolling when I should be using popping? Sorry about that.
      For me small groups means "groups who lack numbers", sorry about that too.

      "if you are refering to farmers as small groups they didn't use to roll holes anyway when it was connected to big groups so nothing has changed here." Before PvEing they will pop all holes into their system and this is more dangerous.

      "your hurting smaller groups who still want to pvp and do stuff but simply don't have the numbers to fight bigger groups like NoHo."
      They can still roll, using battleships, just like:
      "as for c1 to c4 not having the option. ofc they do you can use battle ships to close wh's mid fight hell we've used our 100mn t3s to fo this on c2 to c4's before to trap people in with us, so this is a viable tactic for any class wh with the possible expection of c1's." But now the difficulty of doing so is similar for all C2-C6 right?

      "even groups who lack numbers in c5 and c6 will find it easier to roll assuming they can use caps." YES, isn't this wrong? Doesn't that imbalance seem wrong at it's core? This is my point, sorry for my poor wording/definitions.

    7. Ok so first farmers if they connect to a big group wouldn't roll there wh they would log off. If no one is about they can roll the wormhole and then are actually safer cos it takes longer for others to roll meaning less chance to catch them. This doesn't add risk this makes it safer.

      My alt corp with 5 people can't roll a wh with actives in that system we simply dont have the numbers. our only option is to pos spin or log off till they close it for us or its not there tz which for alot of big groups all there tz's would be better than us.

      the next bit I'm really not sure what your getting at.

      The bit about it being wrong for c5 and c6 groups since its easier that comes down to risk if they want to put a expensive cap on the line they can close it faster if they don't want to do that they can use cheap battleships the only advantage they have is more options which comes from being in a higher class wormholes, or do you want to ban all caps in c5 and c6 space.

      Anyway you obviously have concerns just send me a mail in game and i'll get you on our ts which will save me time and make it easier to understand what issues you have.

    8. Thank you for listening. I think we just disagree, but I won't complain if they roll it back. I'm just extremely happy that you are taking the time to investigate lower wormhole income.

      I was trying to get at:
      C4->C4 max per jump: 300 Gg total: 1800 to 2200 Gg
      300/400 = : (

      C5->C5 max per jump: 1350 Gg total: 2700 to 3300 Gg
      1350/600 = : )

      Why not:
      C4->C4 max per jump: 900 Gg total: 1800 to 2200 Gg
      and change an Orca's mass to 850 Gg
      Maybe that's just silly.

  3. Corbexx, can you confirm whether the increased frequency of wormhole spawning also effects K2K holes?

  4. k space to k space wh's still have same spawn rate.

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