Friday, 22 May 2015

C5 and C6 space.

I said a while ago that I'd write something up about the state of C5 and C6 space.

I've had some concerns over this area of W-space for a while, along with a few others who have spoken to me about various issues around it. A lot of people have complain that this area of space is dead or dying. The problem atleast in my eyes is that part of the problem isn't a mechanical issue. Getting more people in to C1 to C4 space was fairly easy a big increase in the value of blue loot lead to a lot more people in space, combined with C4 getting dual statics and a lot of PvP groups moved in to them.

Some of the problems can be shown in a mail I got, I get quite a few like this and skype messages about the same. (I've blanked out names)

bringing up the point of bringing more people to w-space, until cap escals are delt with vary few groups will move to repopulate high class space out side of farming and even then it is currently dominated by **/****/***/****. Almost every other c5/6 you find will have a alt corp owned by them, and they will defend them i remeber when i was still in rainbow that **** once asked if anyone wanted to help kill caps which turned out to be someone trying to evict their farm corp. 
lowering loss is a good first step but wormhole need to loose the massive profit of owning many holes or those mega wormhole corps will continue to dominate the rest of w-space without challange for a long time.

What can be done? Getting more people in to C5 or C6 isn't that easy, with capital escalations its very easy to make huge amounts of isk in a very short time in a pretty safe manner. Whats worse is that you are disincentived to bring more people since this lowers your isk/person. Your much better having 10 groups of 5 people running cap escalations in 10 different wormholes than 50 people in one place farming.

CCP Bettik mentioned at fanfest that they are looking to potentially change this lowering the isk from cap escalations in some manner but giving you a bonus for finishing the site to compensate.

This would hopefully encourage groups to farm stuff in their static and get more people in space, more people in space is always good.

The non mechanical issue. The whcfc, now while they aren't always together, they often we're/are and this leads to people always assuming they are regardless. In NoHo we're had multiple times when we're had 3 groups all come in together and it does get to the point when if you see one you just assume the others won't be far behind.

Whats worse is it doesn't stop there. People don't want to engage them and just blue ball, due to either not having enough people or expecting other groups to be with them. This then leads to evictions due to "they never fight must be carebears". Then you have even less people to kill. It's a simple case of over fishing.

Now even if these groups do stop teaming up the problem is people will often assume they are together and so still won't engage. I've spoke to a few people about this and I just don't think this can be sorted by any mechanical change.

If people have ideas and suggestions I'm more than happy to listen to them.


  1. So much isk, so little risk......

    Link WH loot to a market of somekind. The fact that blue books have unlimited NPC buy orders is so counter-eve I dont know what else it. Its like nullsec anom npc bounties but x100.

    Increase the risk of accessability to these high-end WHs. Make all C6 and C5s have duel statics, and give alot of them ramdom Null exits so a null group who can actually field 30-50 pilots can stumble in on these site runners and gank them.

    Increase the sleeper BS ehp and resists, more scarmming/pointing frigs & crusiers in the cap esc wave, today its just all fat jucy BSs. Make them remain in space longer or put more ships on grid and at risk. The longer they are in space, the more risk. Again, still the games best pve isk/hr by far....why all the security?

    Why no mention to the renting epidemic in this space? Renting killed sov for years. Its killing wspace now. Why not look at what CCP did to kill renting in sov and follow the formula? Talk about changing player-driven issues, looks like the jump changes fixed that eh? Dont want to hear about CCP cannot do anything to change player behavior.

    Thera.....give Thera x5 statics to C5/C6 space but have them be brief 90min lifetime holes that folks can poke their heads in, chk for site runners to gank, then gtfo, look for the next one to spawn - repete.

    Follow the C4 and below logic - if you want more sites to run, get out into your chains, roll them, repete. This would mean making site NOT its just a joke.

    Maybe bring back API npc kill data????
    That might have had a bigger impact on the current state of WH space more then expected now that we are a little over 1 year since that has been in effect.

  2. Why should anything be done?


    I live in a C4 (and have lived in C2's, 3's and 5's) and I'm happy. A lot of my corpmates have lived in C5s and while they liked it, they didn't stay because they eventually grew to dislike the long pipes that one often finds in C5s and 6s. There are players who will want to live in C5s and 6s and there are those who won't. The biggest issue that I see why more players aren't in C5s and 6s is the capital issue. Those holes are very desirable and need a fair amount of folks in order to properly defend.

    I've also found that moving to C5s meant dealing with the kind of nullsec type of atmosphere where things become super serious and there's strict doctrines and a lot of me paying to play someone else's game the way they want me to play it. So I fly with a small C4 group that has guidelines rather than doctrine and isn't that super serious.

    As for the "little risk" argument, um, no. Just, no. We've gotten jumped running sites, we've fought running battles where we came out the losers, but had tremendous fun doing it. I've found plenty of risk in my time in w-space. Others may have different experiences, but that doesn't make it universal.

    Short of forcing players to play differently in the big wormhole groups, really, I don't see any tweaking of mechanics as the solution.

    1. This is why